kristi holl Good afternoon! Welcome to this afternoon's "Open Forum" session. I'm your guest moderator and former web editor, Kristi Holl, and I'm delighted to be back here subbing for Mel while he's away on his trip. I see some familiar faces!! 8-) We're back for an informal time of answering any questions you might like to ask, on any subject. So feel free to ask what's on your mind! A ton of questions came in early, so I'll start with those and feed in yours as they appear. First, please read these announcements, then we'll get started.

kristi holl IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS: Send questions you'd like answered or discussed by using your "Ask a Question" icon/button. (It looks like a thought bubble icon, RIGHT NEXT TO THE RED QUESTION MARK.) The moderator (me, Kristi Holl) will post the questions one at a time in the chat room and do my best to answer them.

kristi holl WARNING: If you don't post anything at all, SOME of you will be bounced off the system in 15 minutes. TO PREVENT THIS, type something (either a question to the moderator or even a private message) every 15 minutes to stay active and remain online.

kristi holl Okay,I think I'm ready...

kristi holl It's great to be here, and the response of presubmitted questions was terrific...

kristi holl so I will get started with those and intersperse more as they come in...

kristi holl Here we go then...

mel boring Presubmitted by JT: I am currently finishing my first draft of a story, and I have spoken with an attorney about copyright, procedures, etc. He is an expert in the field and with a very reputable firm in Florida. He has recommended I go forth with submitting my story and some basic illustrations. My greatest concern, at this point, is how to determine those to whom I should submit. Any suggestions?

kristi holl First of all, if you've only finished a first draft of the story, it's likely that it still needs more work before submitting it anywhere. Many stories go through a dozen revisions before submission.

kristi holl Also, although your attorney is a good contact for legal questions, he may be amiss in recommending that you submit with illustrations. Few editors want to see any illustrations with the text, even for picture books which rely heavily on pictures.

kristi holl The text or story has to sell itself by itself. Many publishers still prefer to find their own illustrators. If they want help with that, they will let you know after accepting your manuscript.

kristi holl For places to submit, check reputable market guides like the 2003 Writer's Market or (if you're a student) the 2003 Children's Magazine Market or 2003 Children's Book Market. Check with a local bookstore or your local library's reference section for marketing books.

mel boring Presubmitted by EV: Tell me I'm wrong, but I've gotten the idea that signing up with a good agent is as hard as getting an editor to accept your book submissions. If this is true then what's the advantage - hey, if I can crack through that tough editorial shell, why should I give up another 10% to an agent? Is there anything they do besides the 'leg-work' that I may just be too lazy to do for myself?

kristi holl First, they take 15% these days, which makes your question even more relevant! Yes, it can be as time-consuming to find an agent as an editor, but there are books available now (like THE PUBLISHING GAME: FIND AN AGENT IN 30 DAYS) that show you how to do it.

kristi holl One of the first things the book's author does is help you see the pros and cons and decide if you even want an agent. They are more helpful for some kinds of writing than others.

kristi holl But as to your question about what they can do that you can't do for yourself: agents know editors and who is looking for what at any given time, and it's a lot easier for agents to approach these editors. Agents get your manuscripts read more quickly and keep them from sitting on a desk as long.

kristi holl Many more publishers have closed their houses to unsolicited manuscripts and even unsolicited queries now, and are only reading agented submissions.

kristi holl You'll get a better contract with an agent usually, and since they don't get paid until the publisher sends out the checks, they will track your payment with diligence.

kristi holl They negotiate contracts and intervene for you with the publisher when there is a problem. A good agent does earn his/her money, I think.

remus Welcome back Kristi. Glad to have you back. I was wondering what you think about paying a professional editor to check your ms before submitting it to a publisher. I have just finished

remus I have just finished my first novel and have found a wonderful editor who has written about 80 books in the past 60 years. She is highly qualified and doesn't charge that much. Do you think this could tip the balance between anacceptance and a rejection by a publisher?

kristi holl Great to be back!....

kristi holl Yes, given her credentials, I can see how that could be a wise investment of your money...

kristi holl I know two or three former editors, like Barbara Seuling, who do this...

kristi holl and she did it for me once too (we traded mss.)...

kristi holl and it was invaluable .

kristi holl If the editor is that well published...

kristi holl she knows what editors want and she knows how writers think and work...

kristi holl and how to give suggestions that will be helpful...

kristi holl it all depends on what you can afford, I imagine...

kristi holl It is GOOD that you checked her credentials though...

kristi holl there are "book doctors" out there masquerading as editors...

kristi holl who are nothing more than writers who couldn't get published...

kristi holl and they are stealing your money...

kristi holl but you did your homework in checking this out, and it sounds like a wise investment.

remus If you have only published articles in children's online magazines (like WeeOnes) can you mention in a query letter that you are "published" or is it not viewed well among publishers if you only have online magazine credit?

kristi holl It depends on the magazine online...

kristi holl some have better reputations than others, just like some magazines in print have better

kristi holl reputations than others...

kristi holl if you DID have something in Jennifer's WEEONEs,

kristi holl I would most certainly mention it...

kristi holl that is a fine magazine with a good reputation, and a good publishing credit to have.

mel boring CD asks: I have two questions regarding writing contests. Is it common practice for the rights to revert to the author after the first publication? For entries that don't get published, does the author retain full rights?

kristi holl Contests vary, so it's wise to read the fine print before even submitting an entry.

kristi holl In general, if you don't win anything, you retain full rights, but some magazines may make an offer to publish your story.

kristi holl If you win, sometimes you get the rights back after publication, but sometimes it is reprinted later in anthologies, etc.

kristi holl Again, if you're not sure after reading the contest rules very thoroughly, contact the head of the contest and ask before you submit your story.

mel boring From writermom: I am writing a children's mystery and only have 1000 words to work with. My question is do I have to include a red herring in something that is so limited. I have read the rules of three and I have three clues and three conflicts but I don't have any red herrings and I am having trouble

three. Please help me clear this up.

kristi holl I write a mystery column for ONCE UPON A TIME, and in the next issue is my article on "Magazine Mystery Writing."

kristi holl It covers writing and marketing magazine mysteries.

kristi holl If you are able to get three clues and THREE conflicts in your short story, you're ahead of most people.

kristi holl The "rule of three" is generally "try and fail, try and fail, try and succeed," as you know. Two of those failures can be the red herrings, or false clues the hero tracked down.

kristi holl But short story mysteries, because of length, have to be kept simple.

kristi holl Maybe 2 or 3 characters tops, in addition to your hero. Simple setting. Most of the word count has to be spent on the action. Trim out most everything else. And good luck!

mel boring M.H. asked: In two cases I've had a manuscript passed from one magazine in a group to another. Does the rule about only submitting one manuscript at a time to an editor apply to a magazine group? Can I send something to Jack and Jill and Humpty Dumpy at the same time if the editors are different or should I wait until the first one comes back? What about doing the same with book imprints within a publishing group?

kristi holl The Children's Better Health Institute magazines (like Jack and Jill, Humpty Dumpty, Turtle, etc.) consider all submissions for ALL the magazines in their group, so one submission covers their whole group (and submitting separately would be a waste of money and time).

kristi holl However, with books, it's different. Most of those imprints don't "talk" to each other or know what the other is publishing and can be treated separately.

kristi holl With the conglomerate take-overs, dozens of companies operate under the biggest umbrellas, but for all practical purposes, they operate independently.

remus Which other online magazines, besides WeeOnes, have a good reputations and are worth mentioning for credit?

kristi holl I don't know them all by any means...

kristi holl but any associated with print magazines, like Highlights...

kristi holl are definitely worth mentioning...

kristi holl a good rule of thumb SOMETIMES to use is .

kristi holl "Are you getting paid for it?"...

kristi holl Or did you, in the case of places like storydog.com that went under, if I remember right....

kristi holl Whether it's an online writing site or a children's story/article site...

kristi holl if they pay, they're pretty well thought of...

kristi holl you can also tell a lot by visiting their website...

kristi holl some look SO SHARP...

kristi holl and others are pretty tacky...

kristi holl you can also tell somewhat by how long they've been around...

kristi holl a couple months, or three years?...

kristi holl All of those factors weigh in your decision.

mayuri Per Remus's earlier question, would publication in a...

mayuri not-so-highly-respected publication ever be a turn-off...

mayuri if you mentioned this when submitting to the more...

mayuri "highly respected" publishers?

kristi holl I would not say it would be a turnoff...no...

kristi holl but I don't think it would help as much as one of the others...

kristi holl because if you write for a free site...

kristi holl to an editor it may not seem a lot different than posting your stories on your own site for free...

kristi holl In the end, though, it's your current story that will sell you or not.

mel boring M.H. asked: We once saw a skunk hopping across the road like Pepe La Peu (sp). When my critique group read "the skunk hopped" without reference to the cartoon character no one believed me. They challenged the verb thinking he hopped like a rabbit which he didn't. They still may not believe me but the question is can I use a cartoon comparison like that in a fiction or nonfiction manuscript? Do I have to use a trade mark?

kristi holl Use a trademark sign yes, for famous characters like this or brand names.

kristi holl However, I would encourage you to leave it out and instead, try to make it more clear in your writing how the skunk moved.

kristi holl If the group argued with the word "hopped," is there a better way to describe it so it's clear? Can you choose different words to make the action clear?

kristi holl This would probably be a good place to remind you....

kristi holl that you may need to send a question or make a comment or say HI in order not to get bumped off as inactive...

kristi holl And now, for more Open Forum questions....

kristi holl Do continue to ask away as I post the previously submitted questions too...

mel boring GD asks: Some editors request a lot of paperwork for one tiny article. Isn't

ask to see the actual manuscript? I put so much work into writing a query letter that will interest the

me wonder about the whole thing. I could have a brilliant story or article and a mediocre query the editors will never see. Why don't they just ask to see the manuscript like some others and save themselves time?

kristi holl I'm sure they ask for queries because they believe it saves them time. Looking at a one-page letter is faster than a four-five page 1,000-word article.

kristi holl Like you, my manuscripts were always better than my queries.

kristi holl However, I have found over the years that no editor (so far) has objected to sending short articles (like 500 words or less) instead of a query.

kristi holl You can read those as quickly as a query letter. I usually didn't use a cover letter or anything, unless I wanted to show publishing credits.

kristi holl But if I skipped the query, I made darned sure the title was a grabber and the first lines in the article hooked the reader good so she'd want to finish it.

kristi holl The title has to hook the editor into reading the first line, the first line has to hook the editor into reading the first paragraph, and the first paragraph has to hook the editor into reading the whole article.

kristi holl Let me take some current questions now...

txblonde89 when you are accpeted to ICL, how is your teacher assigned

kristi holl He or she is assigned if they have room for new students first...

kristi holl and if the student has requested a particular type of teacher...

kristi holl (like some students want a teacher who has published picture books before, or a Christian writer)...

kristi holl they match that up (and I encourage people to ask for a particular instructor...

kristi holl or type of teacher, if you think it would help your needs)...

kristi holl they try to match interests, I think...

kristi holl at least I get a high percentage of students who write mysteries, write for middle grades and/or write for the Christian markets...

kristi holl of course, it could be because those are common interests too...

kristi holl if your instructor doesn't click with you for some reason...

kristi holl you can request a transfer too.

remus Kristi, I just got an acceptance from ONCE UPON A TIME. My illustration will be on the cover for the summer 2003 issue. Audrey asked me to write half a page about myself that will be inside on the first page. Would that be considered as "published" writing credit ?

kristi holl Wow! I don't have my summer issue yet--do you?...

kristi holl That is really neat--I like how Audrey has the artists write up something about themselves...

kristi holl but alas and alack, that write-up won't count as a publishing credit...

kristi holl but the published magazine cover is certainly worth mentioning from now on!

casey Can you give us an update on your daughter, Laurie.

kristi holl Thank you for asking...

kristi holl I'm afraid two days ago we got some disappointing news...

kristi holl she was supposed to be home by Christmas...

kristi holl and they extended her stay by 6 months...

kristi holl like they have with many Reservists and Guards...

kristi holl she (and her fiance) are not thrilled...

kristi holl she is taking it like a good soldier--better than the rest of us!...

kristi holl She is right outside Baghdad and runs convoys of medical supplies into the city...

kristi holl and gets shot at regularly and stands guard duty at night sometimes...

kristi holl but she is quite blase about it...

kristi holl she was promoted to staff sergeant and has a lot of responsibility...

kristi holl but she likes it...

kristi holl thank you for asking--and for your prayers.

cdcd Do you know how strict the length guidelines are for the

cdcd Children's Writers Contest? I'm only 8 words over.

kristi holl I would cut the 8 words...

kristi holl most contests are like writing grants...

kristi holl very strict according to the rules.

remus Last week Paula Morrow mentioned fingerplays for Ladybug. Can you explain what fingerplays are?

kristi holl I can picture them, but I'm not sure I'm right...

kristi holl if any of you know FOR SURE what they are...

kristi holl send me a description in your question box and I'll post it. Thanks.

remus sorry I mean 2004 issue for ONCE UPON A TIME...not 003

kristi holl Oh! That's why I don't have it yet! 8-)

mel boring GD asks: Some editors request a lot of paperwork for one tiny article. Isn't

ask to see the actual manuscript? I put so much work into writing a query letter that will interest the

me wonder about the whole thing. I could have a brilliant story or article and a mediocre query the editors will never see. Why don't they just ask to see the manuscript like some others and save themselves time?

kristi holl Oops, I meant to delete that. I already answered it.

mel boring GD asked: Is it appropriate to send out an manuscript after it's been turned down from a magazine with a theme list--meaning that the article I "tailored" to a specific theme for a specific magazine might appear somewhere else?

kristi holl Absolutely! Keep sending it out to whatever magazines would be appropriate for the age range, length and subject matter you wrote about!

kristi holl Presubmitted by dawna: I am wondering about references/footnotes for non-fiction articles. For example, if I was writing an article about a particular food and wanted to say that it was "high in vitamin C" and had "x" amount of calories would I have to site the source for a detail like this. How about a statement about health benefits such as "this food prevents cancer" ... would I have to refer to the doctor's/studies that suggest this. Do you know of a good book that discusses footnotes, references etc. for non-fiction article writing in particular (the "essay writing" books I have that discuss "footnotes" do not refer to article writing)?

kristi holl Except for well known and accepted facts (like citrus fruits are a good source of Vitamin C) I would encourage you to keep track of all your resources and references (except encyclopedia entries, which editors are NOT impressed by).

kristi holl A solid bibliography of resources is required by more and more magazine editors for nonfiction.

kristi holl Your bibliography shows the editor that your finished piece is likely supported by strong evidence and research. It gives the editor the tools to fact-check your work too in case there is a question.

kristi holl Always give information about primary sources, like interviews with experts. This bibliography is an important tool in selling your writing.

kristi holl For a good reference book for showing how to prepare a bibliography, see The Chicago Manual of Style or other handbooks. I use one put out by Newsweek. Articles for children's magazines rarely use or like footnotes, but DO include a thorough bibliography.

kristi holl presubmitted by Corrine: How can you make a good cover letter that will stand out against other submissions?

kristi holl It takes more writing and rewriting than you might think to craft an attention-getting query or cover letter. I would suggest that you study some good source material on it.

kristi holl If you're a student with us, you'll find good instruction and sample letters in front of the 2003 Children's Magazine Guide and the 2003 Children's Book Guide.

kristi holl Also, there are many specific reference books published by places like Writer's Digest Book Club that are good. I have one called Query Letters/Cover Letters by Larry Burgett. There are many others, and they are very helpful!

kristi holl Presubmitted by gg: I finally got my permission letter in the mail from Carus for me to sign and give away all rights (gladly). Only, I feel so stupid. I got two copies of this letter to sign. Is one mine? Or do I send both copies back to the Cricket Magazine Group? I guess I should make a copy if one isn't mine.

kristi holl Sign them both and send them both back. Then the editor will sign your copy and return it to you. Myself, I always photocopied the contracts before I sent them both back, just in case. And congratulations!!!!

kplano Fingerplays are little rhymes with hand actions for preschoolers.

kristi holl Thank you! Well put.

kristi holl writermom...

kristi holl i only got the tag end of your question...what is common? what happened?

kristi holl Presubmitted by Lulu: How can you tell if a story (900-1000 words) would be best placed in a magazine or if it could hold it's own as a book?

kristi holl You have to take several things into consideration. First, what are the illustrative possibilities?

kristi holl Do you have enough scene changes that an illustrator of a picture book could paint something DIFFERENT on 15-20 pages?

kristi holl Or do you have just two or three scene changes, like the average short story?

kristi holl You can try breaking up your story into 32 pages, the average length picture book, and see how it falls.

kristi holl Also, picture book texts have almost NO setting or character description at all--it is left up to the illustrator to supply. Short stories, on the other hand, have character and setting descriptions.

kristi holl Presubmitted by Taggy: I have been given a nonfiction assignment that I have to send by e-mail. I'm not sure if I should send the sidebar as a separate e-mail or just leave a space at the bottom of the story and paste it there. Any suggestions?

kristi holl I would include it at the bottom so the whole thing can go in one email. It's too easy for them to get separated and lost otherwise. Just leave a space, then type SIDEBAR, and give the sidebar text.

kristi holl Presubmitted by MaryJA: I am working on my first book; a book of Christmas stories for families to read together, during the holiday. How do you know, when your story is finished and you can go on to write the next one? I have great imagination, so I always find it easy to think up story lines, but I am not sure when to let go and go on to the next story. I think maybe I am trying too hard. I have been on the first story three weeks. Will you just get a feeling, ah that's good? Any suggestions about my first book of stories? Thanks.

kristi holl It is a tough question, knowing when to quit and submit.

kristi holl Have you given the story a cooling off period? That is critical.

kristi holl Put the story away now for several weeks while you work on the others, and then take it out later and re-read it and see what you think.

kristi holl I have done this with books I thought were finished, only to find later (after they "cooled") that they had huge problems I couldn't see when they were fresh in my mind.

kristi holl But even when they are done, and you can't really improve them anymore, you can still feel like tinkering.

kristi holl Then you have to make yourself stop and submit it. But try that cooling off period first, no matter how anxious you are to get it in the mail.

kristi holl As far as selling a book of stories...

kristi holl that will be more difficult because few publishers publish books of short stories...

kristi holl unless it's by someone with a proven track record...

kristi holl it may turn out that you publish them individually in magazines...

kristi holl then a published collection later...

kristi holl Highlights does that all the time and they are successful with it.

kristi holl MB, I'm not ignoring your question, by the way...

kristi holl I don't know what literary filters even are...

kristi holl but hopefully I can find out before Friday and include this in the newsletter questions...

kristi holl where did you encounter that term?

writermom I am on lesson 6 of the basics course and recently recieved

writermom invitation to take a class at Longridge

writermom course there. Is this common and why would this happen

kristi holl No, it's not common, or it shouldn't be...

kristi holl a computer glitch I would guess...

kristi holl believe it or not, I still get "invitations" to take the ICL course in the mail...

kristi holl and I have taught for them or worked for them for 20 years now...

kristi holl I mentioned it once, and they fixed the computer...

kristi holl but I sort of miss them now because they were using my name in their ad. 8-)

kristi holl Just ignore it, unless you feel like taking two courses at once...

kristi holl I should tell you...

kristi holl that a few students who are gifted and very determined DO take two courses at once...

kristi holl so maybe you were chosen for that reason!

regina I was also confused with my Ladybug acceptance. I kept one

regina copy and returned the other one. I didn't know why they sent

regina two! Oh well....

kristi holl I guess you're just supposed to know somehow, but when it first happened to me...

kristi holl I had to contact my instructor because I thought...

kristi holl there was some mysterious thing I was supposed to do with the second one that I didn't know about.

taggy Is it OK to edit quotes, or do... you have to use... dots?

kristi holl Both...

kristi holl you will need to edit quotes because they are usually much too wordy...

kristi holl but to be safe and accurate, do use the ... when you take out words...

kristi holl unless it came before or after your quote.

taggy Should I give publishers a choice of photos...

taggy which they then will ask permission for?

kristi holl Yes, that is usually how it works...

kristi holl if you take your own photos, that is...

kristi holl if you are having to buy them, I would only tell the publisher about them in a cover letter...

kristi holl and let them choose that way--I would not buy up a bunch of expensive photos for them to look at.

remus If you get an activity accepted by a major magazine and this activity contains mainly the illustration and only a few sentences in writing, would that be considered "published" writing credit or would that be illustrating credit again?

kristi holl That's published writing--definitely...

kristi holl just like a short board book with maybe only 20 words in it is considered a book publishing credit...

kristi holl but anything you write up, like a bio for the magazine, isn't a credit.

rite1 Rewriting my original question:

rite1 Don't think that my ICL instructor has much experience with

rite1 picture books. What do I do?

kristi holl If your real heart is in writing picture books, then ask your instructor about his/her experience in publishing picture books (not just writing them, but publishing them)...

kristi holl if there is no experience there, I would respectfully tell them you will request a transfer and call Student Services and tell them your dilemma...

kristi holl I really think picture book writing is a specialty...

kristi holl and hopefully the school won't mind my saying this...

kristi holl but if there is an instructor who has room for more students and is an expert in the field you want to enter...

kristi holl I think a transfer would be in order...

kristi holl I know that I have received transfers in the past because a student wanted to write mysteries or Christian material...

kristi holl I've also had students transfer away from me because I had trouble handling a gory book ms. once.

mbvoelker A critique complained that I used too many filters in my writing. I didn't know what she meant. I asked her, Mary, and Mel and have gotten 3 quite different answers. It seems to involve the way you narrow your focus through your POV characters but that doesn't seem to be all of it. :-)

kristi holl Well, hmmmm....

kristi holl I really don't know!...I would go by what the critiquer meant, I guess.

lisalisa I would like to sumit to my ICL instructor via email. How?

kristi holl It will depend on whether your instructor does teaching over the Internet/online or not...

kristi holl I don't know how many do it--I don't--

kristi holl but call student services and ask if your particular instructor accepts email submissions...

kristi holl the office will accept faxes, but they are more expensive.

edieeh How do you print music(not handwitten) for submission...

edieeh with a story?

kristi holl I'm not sure what you're referring to, but if it's to lyrics of some song, be careful...

kristi holl because you can run into heavy copyright problems...

kristi holl and they charge MEGAbucks to grant permission to use even a few lines...

kristi holl If you mean the actual bars of music that you see on sheet music...

kristi holl I don't know about that...

kristi holl I do know my music teacher son-in-law uses music software...

kristi holl that shows the bars and graphs that lets him put notes on the paper...

kristi holl you might try something like that...

kristi holl I would look for something FREE online before I bought any softwrare though...

kristi holl shareware.com or other free sites are loaded with such goodies.

kristi holl Oh, I just noticed the time...I guess we went over a few minutes...

kristi holl What a wealth of great questions today!...

kristi holl Thank you all for coming. It's been great! And I'll see you again next week!